<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Thursday Thirteen #7: Thirteen Required Attributes of Any Church I (Might Eventually) Attend</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.hopefulspirit.com/2007/05/02/thursday-thirteen-7-thirteen-required-attributes-of-any-church-i-might-eventually-attend/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.hopefulspirit.com/2007/05/02/thursday-thirteen-7-thirteen-required-attributes-of-any-church-i-might-eventually-attend/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 02 Jun 2010 12:48:38 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<xhtml:meta xmlns:xhtml="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" name="robots" content="noindex" />
	<item>
		<title>By: Jeannine</title>
		<link>http://www.hopefulspirit.com/2007/05/02/thursday-thirteen-7-thirteen-required-attributes-of-any-church-i-might-eventually-attend/comment-page-1/#comment-291</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeannine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2007 05:48:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hopefulspirit.com/?p=67#comment-291</guid>
		<description>A very good list.&lt;br/&gt;I love 13!&lt;br/&gt;We are in a community where &quot;to see who is in church on Sundays&quot; is the reason why a lot of people go to church. I really have a problem with the hypocracy of it all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A very good list.<br />I love 13!<br />We are in a community where “to see who is in church on Sundays” is the reason why a lot of people go to church. I really have a problem with the hypocracy of it all.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.hopefulspirit.com/2007/05/02/thursday-thirteen-7-thirteen-required-attributes-of-any-church-i-might-eventually-attend/comment-page-1/#comment-285</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2007 12:19:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hopefulspirit.com/?p=67#comment-285</guid>
		<description>A very good list, and one that matches many of the criteria I have searched for for years. As always, though, &quot;the devil&#039;s in the details&quot;... *sigh* It&#039;d be interesting to discuss with you the philosophical, theological and finctional details of several of the issues you raise, but one--perhaps viewed by many as least important theologically but which most often in my experience drives much of the conflict in churches--is in a particular area of expertise of mine: church music.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&quot;Inspiring music that enhances the worship experience -- All different styles of music should be employed because it is, like people&#039;s reactions to it, infinitely varied and diverse. Why sing the same old songs over and over when there are so many to choose from?&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Nothing to disagree with there, though I&#039;d note that here, more than in some of the others, the devil truly IS in the details! A central problem that leads to failure in selection of music for corporate worship expressions is that most fail to consider matters of what I commonly think of as musical teleology.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Sure, most folks selecting music for corporate worship expression will examine the lyrics for at least some sort of othodoxy in whatever creed or profession of faith they practice (most), fewer and fewer examine those lyrics for the meta lessons they teach, though (but that&#039;s another argument).&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The central problem, largely unknown to musically subliterate clergy and musically illiterate congregations, is that the music itself--the melodies, harmonies, rhythms and styles, ALL in various ways work to present messages of their own. When those messages all point toward the same end, the music can be &quot;good&quot; music in that it effectively presents an ethos, a mood, an emotion or an idea (or a combination of those things) and draws the listener/participant toward the end for which the music was (consciously or unconsciously) designed.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Examing WHAT that end is, WhERE the music &quot;wants&quot; to take the listener/participant is important--especially so in music used for corporate worship expression--because generally the &quot;trip&quot; taken by the listener/participant is not a conscious one.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;When the teleos of the music points effectively toward an end compatible with sound lyrics, the music used for corporate worship expression will be effective in aiding the worshipers to express their worship lives.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;In a worst case scenario, music that is very effective in leading to a place that will NOT enhance worship expression is (and has been in actual instances I have witnessed) combined with lyrics that seem almost designed to lead worshipers astray.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;*sigh*&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I know pastors who spend hours and hours searching the Word and in prayer in preparation for (truly effective biblical, &lt;i&gt;relevant&lt;/i&gt;) sermons who then sabotage the service by either just cherry-picking some songs for the congregation to sing that seem to touch on the theme for his sermon or who hand off the music selection to &quot;the band&quot;--none of whom usually have the knowledge of scripture or devotion life to add to their usually not-too-deep understanding of music to bring to bear.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;*sigh*&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Oh. Well. If I ever find the &quot;perfect church&quot; I&#039;d not join for fear of screwing it up. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;:-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A very good list, and one that matches many of the criteria I have searched for for years. As always, though, “the devil’s in the details”… *sigh* It’d be interesting to discuss with you the philosophical, theological and finctional details of several of the issues you raise, but one–perhaps viewed by many as least important theologically but which most often in my experience drives much of the conflict in churches–is in a particular area of expertise of mine: church music.</p>
<p>“Inspiring music that enhances the worship experience — All different styles of music should be employed because it is, like people’s reactions to it, infinitely varied and diverse. Why sing the same old songs over and over when there are so many to choose from?”</p>
<p>Nothing to disagree with there, though I’d note that here, more than in some of the others, the devil truly IS in the details! A central problem that leads to failure in selection of music for corporate worship expressions is that most fail to consider matters of what I commonly think of as musical teleology.</p>
<p>Sure, most folks selecting music for corporate worship expression will examine the lyrics for at least some sort of othodoxy in whatever creed or profession of faith they practice (most), fewer and fewer examine those lyrics for the meta lessons they teach, though (but that’s another argument).</p>
<p>The central problem, largely unknown to musically subliterate clergy and musically illiterate congregations, is that the music itself–the melodies, harmonies, rhythms and styles, ALL in various ways work to present messages of their own. When those messages all point toward the same end, the music can be “good” music in that it effectively presents an ethos, a mood, an emotion or an idea (or a combination of those things) and draws the listener/participant toward the end for which the music was (consciously or unconsciously) designed.</p>
<p>Examing WHAT that end is, WhERE the music “wants” to take the listener/participant is important–especially so in music used for corporate worship expression–because generally the “trip” taken by the listener/participant is not a conscious one.</p>
<p>When the teleos of the music points effectively toward an end compatible with sound lyrics, the music used for corporate worship expression will be effective in aiding the worshipers to express their worship lives.</p>
<p>In a worst case scenario, music that is very effective in leading to a place that will NOT enhance worship expression is (and has been in actual instances I have witnessed) combined with lyrics that seem almost designed to lead worshipers astray.</p>
<p>*sigh*</p>
<p>I know pastors who spend hours and hours searching the Word and in prayer in preparation for (truly effective biblical, <i>relevant</i>) sermons who then sabotage the service by either just cherry-picking some songs for the congregation to sing that seem to touch on the theme for his sermon or who hand off the music selection to “the band”–none of whom usually have the knowledge of scripture or devotion life to add to their usually not-too-deep understanding of music to bring to bear.</p>
<p>*sigh*</p>
<p>Oh. Well. If I ever find the “perfect church” I’d not join for fear of screwing it up. </p>
<p> <img src='http://www.hopefulspirit.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Qtpies7</title>
		<link>http://www.hopefulspirit.com/2007/05/02/thursday-thirteen-7-thirteen-required-attributes-of-any-church-i-might-eventually-attend/comment-page-1/#comment-284</link>
		<dc:creator>Qtpies7</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2007 05:15:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hopefulspirit.com/?p=67#comment-284</guid>
		<description>Interesting list. We have a bit of an intigrated church, but its barely possible in our town. We are, however, and very mission-minded church and we are very well-known for our love on the newcomers. Thats why we stayed, and why our church is growing. People are surrounded when they are new! I can&#039;t imagine a family getting through without meeting at least 4 families, but more likely 10, the first day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting list. We have a bit of an intigrated church, but its barely possible in our town. We are, however, and very mission-minded church and we are very well-known for our love on the newcomers. Thats why we stayed, and why our church is growing. People are surrounded when they are new! I can’t imagine a family getting through without meeting at least 4 families, but more likely 10, the first day.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

