<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Reflections on Proposition 8: California’s Shame (Part One)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.hopefulspirit.com/2008/12/28/reflections-prop-8/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.hopefulspirit.com/2008/12/28/reflections-prop-8/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 02 Jun 2010 12:48:38 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	
<xhtml:meta xmlns:xhtml="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" name="robots" content="noindex" />
	<item>
		<title>By: derl</title>
		<link>http://www.hopefulspirit.com/2008/12/28/reflections-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-2862</link>
		<dc:creator>derl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 02:29:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hopefulspirit.com/?p=507#comment-2862</guid>
		<description>i hate anyone who comes door to door and bothers me even if i do agree with their message i want them gone</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i hate anyone who comes door to door and bothers me even if i do agree with their message i want them gone</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: luxury perfume</title>
		<link>http://www.hopefulspirit.com/2008/12/28/reflections-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-2814</link>
		<dc:creator>luxury perfume</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 17:16:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hopefulspirit.com/?p=507#comment-2814</guid>
		<description>It was very good post, it helped me in finding a good affiliate, thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was very good post, it helped me in finding a good affiliate, thanks.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Asbestos</title>
		<link>http://www.hopefulspirit.com/2008/12/28/reflections-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-2806</link>
		<dc:creator>Asbestos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 04:43:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hopefulspirit.com/?p=507#comment-2806</guid>
		<description>We are expecting a baby in April and happily married, just like any other ordinary family.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We are expecting a baby in April and happily married, just like any other ordinary family.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Personal Development articles</title>
		<link>http://www.hopefulspirit.com/2008/12/28/reflections-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-2801</link>
		<dc:creator>Personal Development articles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:50:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hopefulspirit.com/?p=507#comment-2801</guid>
		<description>“Marriage is between a man and a woman, ma’am,” he said hurriedly in a ploy to stop me from terminating our brief encounter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“Marriage is between a man and a woman, ma’am,” he said hurriedly in a ploy to stop me from terminating our brief encounter.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://www.hopefulspirit.com/2008/12/28/reflections-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-2793</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 15:23:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hopefulspirit.com/?p=507#comment-2793</guid>
		<description>Happy belated New Year! I eagerly await the next post(s) in this series.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Happy belated New Year! I eagerly await the next post(s) in this series.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Not Fainthearted</title>
		<link>http://www.hopefulspirit.com/2008/12/28/reflections-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-2788</link>
		<dc:creator>Not Fainthearted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 17:48:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hopefulspirit.com/?p=507#comment-2788</guid>
		<description>thank you, Hopeful Spirit, for all you said to the young man on your doorstep and to the commenters here. I can only hope to be so eloquent when I am called on in similar circumstance.

Blessings on you and yours in 2009!

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;em&gt;Not Fainthearted&#180;s latest blog post: &lt;a href=&quot;http://notfainthearted.com/2009/01/02/friday-five-first-edition-2009/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Friday Five - First Edition 2009&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thank you, Hopeful Spirit, for all you said to the young man on your doorstep and to the commenters here. I can only hope to be so eloquent when I am called on in similar circumstance.</p>
<p>Blessings on you and yours in 2009!</p>
<p><abbr><em></em><em>Not Fainthearted´s latest blog post: <a href="http://notfainthearted.com/2009/01/02/friday-five-first-edition-2009/">Friday Five — First Edition 2009</a></em></abbr></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Melissan</title>
		<link>http://www.hopefulspirit.com/2008/12/28/reflections-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-2787</link>
		<dc:creator>Melissan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 17:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hopefulspirit.com/?p=507#comment-2787</guid>
		<description>I am so thankful to be living in Massachusetts where my wife and I live in peace and quiet.  We are expecting a baby in April and happily married, just like any other ordinary family.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;em&gt;Melissan&#180;s latest blog post: &lt;a href=&quot;http://whybenormal.today.com/2009/01/02/why-i-love-to-watch-the-biggest-loser/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Why I Love to Watch the Biggest Loser&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am so thankful to be living in Massachusetts where my wife and I live in peace and quiet.  We are expecting a baby in April and happily married, just like any other ordinary family.</p>
<p><abbr><em></em><em>Melissan´s latest blog post: <a href="http://whybenormal.today.com/2009/01/02/why-i-love-to-watch-the-biggest-loser/">Why I Love to Watch the Biggest Loser</a></em></abbr></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: yinyang</title>
		<link>http://www.hopefulspirit.com/2008/12/28/reflections-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-2786</link>
		<dc:creator>yinyang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 15:32:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hopefulspirit.com/?p=507#comment-2786</guid>
		<description>Happy belated New Year! I eagerly await the next post(s) in this series.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;em&gt;yinyang&#180;s latest blog post: &lt;a href=&quot;http://crazyrainbowunderwear.blogspot.com/2008/12/jon-stewart-as-willy-wonka-dick-cheney.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jon Stewart as Willy Wonka? Dick Cheney as Elmer Fudd?&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Happy belated New Year! I eagerly await the next post(s) in this series.</p>
<p><abbr><em></em><em>yinyang´s latest blog post: <a href="http://crazyrainbowunderwear.blogspot.com/2008/12/jon-stewart-as-willy-wonka-dick-cheney.html">Jon Stewart as Willy Wonka? Dick Cheney as Elmer Fudd?</a></em></abbr></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Hopeful Spirit</title>
		<link>http://www.hopefulspirit.com/2008/12/28/reflections-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-2785</link>
		<dc:creator>Hopeful Spirit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 21:58:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hopefulspirit.com/?p=507#comment-2785</guid>
		<description>@Faith and Facts:  Where, &lt;em&gt;precisely&lt;/em&gt;, did I &quot;misstate the Bible&quot;?  I would love to hear how I did that, in your estimation.  I stated that I have studied the Bible thoroughly and do not beleve that it can be used to deny equal rights under the law to any person or group of persons.  I&#039;m sure that you do find that &quot;hard to believe&quot; because you have obviously come to a different conclusion.  But that&#039;s how it is and that&#039;s why Christians need to agree to disagree in a loving, Christ-like manner.

However, as to a matter of &lt;em&gt;civil&lt;/em&gt; rights under our system of laws, there is no room for disagreement founded upon the religious beliefs of one group.  Nor can the religious beliefs of any group(s) be allowed to trump the secular rights granted to any person(s) under the state or federal Constitution.

Sexual orientation is protected under the law.  Therefore, marriage cannot be denied to persons of the sex on the basis of their orientation.  That is just how the law is written and the courts are finally recognizing that fact.

This argument is no different than arguments in previous decades related to the rights of women or persons of color.  Exactly the same rhetoric is being thrown around by the religious right in this country to resist same-sex marriage as was used to argue that miscegenistic laws (prohibiting the marriage or cohabitation of persons of different races) should remain on the books.

For the record, those laws remained intact well into this century.  In fact, the man who is about to be our next President was born to a man and woman who, under the law of that time, could not marry because one was black and the other white. 

Sadly, there are still many churches that aren&#039;t even discussing the issue of ordaining women, much less same-sex marriage.  To me, that&#039;s barbaric.  Of course, I come from a lifetime of membership in a group that began ordaining women in 1970.

For me, those historical realities put this issue into perspective and compels only one conclusion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Faith and Facts:  Where, <em>precisely</em>, did I “misstate the Bible”?  I would love to hear how I did that, in your estimation.  I stated that I have studied the Bible thoroughly and do not beleve that it can be used to deny equal rights under the law to any person or group of persons.  I’m sure that you do find that “hard to believe” because you have obviously come to a different conclusion.  But that’s how it is and that’s why Christians need to agree to disagree in a loving, Christ-like manner.</p>
<p>However, as to a matter of <em>civil</em> rights under our system of laws, there is no room for disagreement founded upon the religious beliefs of one group.  Nor can the religious beliefs of any group(s) be allowed to trump the secular rights granted to any person(s) under the state or federal Constitution.</p>
<p>Sexual orientation is protected under the law.  Therefore, marriage cannot be denied to persons of the sex on the basis of their orientation.  That is just how the law is written and the courts are finally recognizing that fact.</p>
<p>This argument is no different than arguments in previous decades related to the rights of women or persons of color.  Exactly the same rhetoric is being thrown around by the religious right in this country to resist same-sex marriage as was used to argue that miscegenistic laws (prohibiting the marriage or cohabitation of persons of different races) should remain on the books.</p>
<p>For the record, those laws remained intact well into this century.  In fact, the man who is about to be our next President was born to a man and woman who, under the law of that time, could not marry because one was black and the other white. </p>
<p>Sadly, there are still many churches that aren’t even discussing the issue of ordaining women, much less same-sex marriage.  To me, that’s barbaric.  Of course, I come from a lifetime of membership in a group that began ordaining women in 1970.</p>
<p>For me, those historical realities put this issue into perspective and compels only one conclusion.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Hopeful Spirit</title>
		<link>http://www.hopefulspirit.com/2008/12/28/reflections-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-2784</link>
		<dc:creator>Hopeful Spirit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 21:42:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hopefulspirit.com/?p=507#comment-2784</guid>
		<description>@Emery:  Why do you assume that any relationship must be &quot;life-giving&quot; in order to be valid?  And why do you assume that I am gay as is evident by your use of the term &quot;partner&quot;?

There are many marriages -- same and opposite sex -- that do not include children.  Still more into which children are incorporated by means other than conception and childbirth.  Are you saying that those marriages are not valid or worthy of recognition simply because they don&#039;t involve &quot;life-giving&quot; in the traditional sense?  What then would you say to those children of such relationships?

Moreover, it is dangerous to make assumptions.  I am not, in fact, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered.  I am a heterosexual woman and have been married to a man for many years.  That does not mean that I cannot stand in solidarity and fight for equality with my gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered brothers and sisters.

Lastly, you have the right to believe as you see fit and worship accordingly.  However, the problem with Proposition 8 is that too many like yourself were unable to separate the religious from the secular.  Proposition 8 has NOTHING to do with religion or religious beliefs.  It is a SECULAR law and, as such, subject to Constitutional scrutiny which is cannot pass as I predict the California Supreme Court will declare.  Sadly, too many people, voted, as you apparently did, from a place of religious conviction rather than understanding of the civil system of laws.  That&#039;s why it passed, but it will not stand.

Christians in diverse cultures such as California must learn that they cannot impose their will, beliefs, traditions, and practices on society as a whole.

Moreover, there are many, many Christians who, like me, have studied the Bible and concluded that it does not say what the patriarchal church has insisted for centuries that it says on the issue of sexual orientation, as well as many other subjects.

Your &quot;scale of morality&quot; is not mine and that is ok.  You can live in accordance with your moral compass and I with mine.  But neither of us can impose our &quot;scale of morality&quot; upon other persons via the government and enactment of laws that are blatantly discriminatory and serve to deny equal rights to all persons irrespective of  their religious beliefs or lack thereof.

You and I can love each other, but you do not have a right to judge me.  You can believe what you want about human nature and behavior, but it is not your place to &quot;condone&quot; or not &quot;condone&quot; my choices.  It is simply your place to offer unconditional love, acceptance, patience, and most importantly, tolerance!

Happy New Year!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Emery:  Why do you assume that any relationship must be “life-giving” in order to be valid?  And why do you assume that I am gay as is evident by your use of the term “partner”?</p>
<p>There are many marriages — same and opposite sex — that do not include children.  Still more into which children are incorporated by means other than conception and childbirth.  Are you saying that those marriages are not valid or worthy of recognition simply because they don’t involve “life-giving” in the traditional sense?  What then would you say to those children of such relationships?</p>
<p>Moreover, it is dangerous to make assumptions.  I am not, in fact, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered.  I am a heterosexual woman and have been married to a man for many years.  That does not mean that I cannot stand in solidarity and fight for equality with my gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered brothers and sisters.</p>
<p>Lastly, you have the right to believe as you see fit and worship accordingly.  However, the problem with Proposition 8 is that too many like yourself were unable to separate the religious from the secular.  Proposition 8 has NOTHING to do with religion or religious beliefs.  It is a SECULAR law and, as such, subject to Constitutional scrutiny which is cannot pass as I predict the California Supreme Court will declare.  Sadly, too many people, voted, as you apparently did, from a place of religious conviction rather than understanding of the civil system of laws.  That’s why it passed, but it will not stand.</p>
<p>Christians in diverse cultures such as California must learn that they cannot impose their will, beliefs, traditions, and practices on society as a whole.</p>
<p>Moreover, there are many, many Christians who, like me, have studied the Bible and concluded that it does not say what the patriarchal church has insisted for centuries that it says on the issue of sexual orientation, as well as many other subjects.</p>
<p>Your “scale of morality” is not mine and that is ok.  You can live in accordance with your moral compass and I with mine.  But neither of us can impose our “scale of morality” upon other persons via the government and enactment of laws that are blatantly discriminatory and serve to deny equal rights to all persons irrespective of  their religious beliefs or lack thereof.</p>
<p>You and I can love each other, but you do not have a right to judge me.  You can believe what you want about human nature and behavior, but it is not your place to “condone” or not “condone” my choices.  It is simply your place to offer unconditional love, acceptance, patience, and most importantly, tolerance!</p>
<p>Happy New Year!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
